26 February 2012

Remember Lot’s Daughters

Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.”  So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day.
Genesis 19:30-38

Assuming the blogs of various pick-up artists are to be believed, it seems reasonable to say that most men have no qualms about getting a woman drunk in order to increase their chances of having sex with her.  This is because men don’t generally have a whole lot in the way of scruples when it comes to getting laid.

But, as the Bible helpfully reminds us, this same sort of callousness in the pursuit of fleshly desires is also found in the minds and spirits of women.  In fact, if this passage teaches anything, it teaches that women have fewer scruples when it comes to getting laid than men do.  See, while men have proven themselves to be willing to get a girl drunk in order to have sex with her, pretty much all of them will draw the line if the girl in question is their mom.  It does not appear that the same can be said for women.

Anyhow, the point in all this is that all human of every sex have the same tendency to do evil, and have the same ability to succumb to temptation and all manner of evil desires.  Even women, which is why it is best not to pedestalize them.

15 comments:

  1. The Bible also helpfully reminds us that these daughters were given by their father to rapists. Any reason you can think of for them to be royally screwed up?

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  2. Reread the passage, Jen; they weren't given to rapists, they were offered to them. Big difference, even though alarming enough in its own right. Fortunately, the rapists didn't want them, because they were faggots.

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  3. @Jennifer- Your solipsism is certainly amusing. Do you suppose that, in the final day of judgment, God will excuse Lot's daughters for their evil because one time something evil happened to them? If not, why should I? If not, why should you?

    (Recommended reading: Acts 10:34; I Cor. 10:13)

    @Will S.- The problem of evil certainly makes life more difficult, but God doesn't give us a free pass simply because we have to deal with unspeakable evil on occasion. While the distinction between being offered and being given is certainly worth making, at the end of the day it doesn't actually matter all that much because God expects obedience regardless of how much evil with have to deal with in our lives.

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  4. Agreed, Simon; Lot failed, morally, to protect his daughters and stand for the right, even though he knew the sodomites wouldn't accept his offer. He should have opposed them, regardless, instead of wickedly offering his daughters.

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  5. I think it is a bit of a stretch to use this one example as a statement about how women are in general.

    Further, it has been my experience that women and men are equally as willing to get a potential mate drunk for the purpose of sex as they are willing to permit themselves to become drunk, knowing ahead of time where that will lead.

    The only real mitigator is that a man can become so drunk that he is not able to participate in sex with a woman, thus he has incentive to control his drinking. A woman can participate in sex even if she is unconscious. Her incentive to control her drinking is to not have sex while she is unconscious.

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  6. @Will S.- I was referring more to Lot's daughters. Just because their daddy offered them to a bunch of homos doesn't mean they are excused for getting their dad drunk and seducing him. Of course, Lot isn't off the hook, either. He shouldn't have gotten drunk or committed fornication with his daughters, and there is no excuse for him offering his daughters as rape toys.

    @Prof. Hale- My point wasn't that all women are evil. My point is that women are just as capable of acting in completely depraved ways (hence my concluding sentence). There is no point in pedestalizing women as the spiritually superior sex--which is something that religious betas have a tendency to do--because women are fully capable of acting depraved.

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  7. If anything, the thought plays out that women are incapable of making moral decisions, especially about drinking and having sex, so men are put on the moral and legal hook to make things better.

    Men can be prosecuted for rape if the woman is too drunk to give consent (subjective). No reciprocity.

    Men must subsidize birth control and abortions for women that they don't even know. No reciprocity.

    After a divorce, men must continue to work so that their ex wives and ex-children can continue to live as before, but teh ex wife is not required to do anything to assist the husband live as he did before.

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  8. "If anything, the thought plays out that women are incapable of making moral decisions..."

    Not incapable; they just can't be trusted. It is troubling that men are always put on the hook for these sort of things, though, as it is clear (from the Bible, at least), that all human beings are capable of correctly making moral decisions. Also, the lack of reciprocity is disgusting as well. I don't like the idea that men are supposed to serve women and make their lives as convenient as possible. But, in many ways, men have dug this hole for themselves. As has been said, men always get the women they deserve and women always get the men the deserve.

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  9. LOL I didn't say they were "excused", Simon; I said they were messed up. Don't be certain that they won't be let off, though; Lot was just saved from raining fire inspite of his wicked offer of his flesh and blood to a demonic mob. One thing that surprises me, though, is that you said they seduced him; I thought they raped him when he was all but passed out. Spiritual rot is inherited in the blood, all right.

    "as it is clear (from the Bible, at least), that all human beings are capable of correctly making moral decisions"

    Exactly, making either sex the "keeper" of the other is foolishness.

    True, Will; someone had suggested they were raped, so I wasn't sure, but the whole thing does show that the place must have been unbelievably evil if this wicked man and his twisted daughters were the best God could save.

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  10. @ Simon: True.

    @ Jennifer: Lot should never have moved his family to Sodom and Gomorrah in the first place; in doing so, he failed to protect them. His wife ended up dead as a result, even though she was morally responsible for herself, not Lot, in terms of sinning in the way that caused God to punish her thus.

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  11. @Jennifer- "One thing that surprises me, though, is that you said they seduced him; I thought they raped him when he was all but passed out."

    The quoted passage isn't entirely clear about what is meant about "not knowing" when they came in and left. It could be that he consumed so much alcohol that he didn't remember the night before; it could be that he was drunk to the point of literal senselessness. Given that being very drunk has a general tendency to impair a man's sexual function, it seems likely that that Lot was drunk enough to forget what happened but not so drunk that his ability to have sex was impaired.

    "Exactly, making either sex the "keeper" of the other is foolishness."

    My assertion was not that men should "keep" women, it was that men should refrain from pedestalizing women (note my concluding sentence from the original post). The reason for this is because women are as capable as men at doing things that are abominably evil.

    @Will S.- Ultimately, the sin of Lot's wife was a matter of the heart. The opportunity to sin only revealed what she already wanted. I doubt (though cannot prove) that her heart would have been that much different had they never lived in Sodom.

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  12. "My assertion was not that men should "keep" women, it was that men should refrain from pedestalizing women"

    I know. My conclusion was the same: neither one is morally superior. What I've seen before is the attitude that one sex is the other's keeper.

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  13. @Jennifer- Just to make sure we're not talking past each other, please define the word "keeper."

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  14. Like, the moral protector of, the one who can keep the other from sin. I've heard it described, very wrongly, of both sexes: "Men can't help themselves, women must save them from themselves!" Or, "Women are amoral and weak, men must teach them morals and keep them in line!"

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  15. @Jennifer- Good enough. We are certainly in agreement that neither sex is the keeper of the other.

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